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Hi, everybody.

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Welcome to PyPodcats: The Hidden Figure of Python Podcast

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series, which is done by the PyPodcats team.

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And the goal of this podcast series

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is to highlight the voices from underrepresented

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group members of the Python community.

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And you can find us on the website.

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Our website is pypodcats.live, and our episodes

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are listed on the PSF YouTube channel.

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And also you can hear it

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from Apple Podcast and Spotify.

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And we do have a Code of Conduct within our

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community, and we follow the PSF's Code of Conduct.

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Yeah, I guess.

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Let's start introducing ourselves.

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My name is Mariatta.

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I'm one of the hosts for PyPodcats.

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I'm based in Vancouver, Canada, and

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I'll give it to you, Tereza.

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My name is Tereza.

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Thank you, Mariatta.

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I am also one of the PyPodcats

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hosts, and I'm based in Hamburg, Germany.

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And Joanna.

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All right, I'm Joanna Jablonski, and I've been

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involved in the Python community since, I think,

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2016, and I'm also based in Vancouver, Canada.

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Joanna, so we know you've been

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very active in the Python world.

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So would you like to tell us a little bit, like,

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how did you get into it, and maybe also, why Python?

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Yeah, sure.

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I actually had some friends over for dinner.

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I think one of them was a data analyst at the

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time, and I had been starting to play around with programming

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again, and he just happened to be really into Python just

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the way that some people are very very into it.

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He wanted me to try it out, and then I did.

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I think I took, like, a couple courses.

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I still felt very new, but I went

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to a PyLadies event in Vancouver.

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The vibe was completely different from any

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other programming meetup I'd ever been to.

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I did not feel like I was

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being tested or anything like that.

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And I, even though I felt very new, people were

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just saying, like, yeah, just make a five minute

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talk about whatever you're learning and come back.

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I'm like, what is this strange place I have landed in?

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But it was really nice, and I feel like I

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got involved with it because it was there, because Python

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has a community in a way that you can't really

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necessarily say to the same extent about other languages.

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And, yeah, that's kind of the

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background for how I got involved.

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And then since then, got a ton of

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stuff, because I met someone through PyLadies

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He knew someone who knew somebody, and that played a

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part in how I started working at Real Python.

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So I was there for three and a half years.

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I ran the curriculum, and

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actually, for the application process.

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I wrote an article about F-strings,

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and I had happened to see Mariatta.

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You gave a talk on F-strings at PyLadies,

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and I saw that same talk again at PyCascades.

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And so it was a lovely sort of circular thing.

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And I've spent most of my time in the

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Python community on some kind of education angles.

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I wanted to ask, basically, how do you feel? Like.

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So you said this, you were in the Python

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community, and it sounds a little bit like opportunities

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came because you were in the Python community, and

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more opportunities to be in the Python community.

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But then my question is, did you have

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career related opportunities coming up from your.

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What impact did your work in the Python community

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have to say work life, if it had any?

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Well, I feel companies sometimes care if you're involved in

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open source, so that can be a tick for them.

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Being involved in the Python community was part

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of how I got involved with Real Python,

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but I wouldn't say it's necessary.

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I mean, being involved in Python education definitely helped me

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work in education at Anaconda, but it has also kind

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of felt like two separate tracks for me.

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And while I've had my career going, I'm

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also kind of keeping this Python world spinning

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on the side, at least since I left

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Real Python, because then the two were together.

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Yeah.

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And I'm also more like about if there are

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skills that you kind of honed in the community

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and then brought back into your work life.

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Well, I feel like I see other people who

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are really front and center in the community.

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For example, you two, Georgi, those types of people.

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And I always feel like I have been hidden, in

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a sense, where maybe people have seen the name or

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the photo, or whenever I end up in some kind

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of tech space, as soon as they hear the world

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Real Python, they're like the whole, everything stops.

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But I feel like a lot of people don't necessarily.

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I don't personally have a lot

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of visibility in the same way. I mean, I used to.

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I think people used to recognize me at conferences.

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That would happen, and that was fun.

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I think.

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We didn't get to hear about what you

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did at Real Python, maybe because of the.

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Would you like to tell us more about your work in

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Real Python for those who are not familiar with that yet?

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Yes.

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So the title is tricky: Executive Editor.

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No one knows what that means.

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That sounds big.

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Yeah.

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It either sounds very big or very small.

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Sometimes people see the word editor and they're

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like, oh, this is the lady that does

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the spell check on my tutorial.

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And I'm like, no, I run the curriculum.

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So that was interesting.

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I came in really early.

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That was exciting to me.

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I was technically the first employee.

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And I find that in general, for educational

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content having to do with programming, the bar

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is incredibly low, both in terms of sometimes

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even just like, is it factually correct?

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Are you teaching the right thing to

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the right person at the right time?

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Are you presenting the information in

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a way that is helpful?

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And so I like that I got to come in

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as someone who didn't have a pure programming background.

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It's like, no, we can do better.

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And so creating systems and style guides and didactic reviews,

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a lot of process to make sure that the stuff

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is good in ways that aren't necessarily, I think, prioritized

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in some other technical content creation spaces.

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And there's a lot of reasons why it's not that really

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make sense, but I like that I could come in and

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just say like, no, we're going to do this, and some

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of you will want to learn how to do this, and

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I will invest more in you and that'll be awesome.

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Those people, then they could become full time.

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And it's a lovely little place where

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people get to just teach and write.

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It's really cool.

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It's an interesting sort of world in itself.

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And there's the community around it, and

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there'll be Open Spaces at PyCon.

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And we had our subscriber community and Slack and office

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hours, and it really grew while I was there.

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When I joined, we were putting out,

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I think, one technical tutorial a week.

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And by the time I left, we were putting

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out two fairly lengthy, often tutorials a week, which

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people in the community started calling book-icles.

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Anthony Shaw's article on CPython's interpreter, I

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think was something like 24,000 words.

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It's bananas.

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And it's not fluff, right?

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Like it's really juicy stuff.

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Because through the review process, we're making sure

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that it's not just fluff for no reason.

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And the writing is tight and you're saying the right

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thing to the right person at the right time.

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By the time I left, we were putting out

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two hefty, really good written tutorials a week, a

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video course, a newsletter, office hours, and a podcast.

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So in those three and a half years, it just exploded.

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And book projects.

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So I co-authored Python Basics with David Amos, and

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I was also the primary viewer, helping Anthony Shaw write

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his book on CPython internals, which sort of started as

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an article, and then we turned it into a proper,

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like a "book" book, and that it was the missing manual.

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That was a very cool thing to work on,

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especially since in my background, I've kind of flip

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flopped between STEM stuff and natural language stuff.

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And I like finding the overlap between the two.

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And I find that in tech there is a

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special niche for people who really want to be

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on that weird overlap, which I can get to

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later, but I found overlaps with stuff like interpreters,

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where this is a language and you're not just

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using the language, you're designing and building a language.

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That's cool.

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I also dabbled with NLP, and one sort of fun achievement

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on that end is that if you Google NLP Python, the

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first result is a tutorial by me, which know is very fun

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Yeah, I used NLTK for it.

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This is like a bit

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The landscape has changed, but it was pretty cool.

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And also another very satisfying overlap between programming languages

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and natural languages is the education side, which is

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why I've found a place here like sort of

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docs and education, and there's sort of different companies

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will call it different things, but it's that overlap

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between code words and people, and managing to simultaneously

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have technical depth but have the other skills that

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make it usable and useful both for yourself and others.

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And that's interesting. Yeah.

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So, actually I wanted to ask you, when you

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were saying, you mentioned that you didn't just study

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STEM and you come from a different background.

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So I think both Mariatta and I are coming from

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a computer science background, and we've seen a lot of

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people in tech coming just from computer science.

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And I personally always like teams that are not

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just computer scientists in data science, at least.

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So can you tell us a little bit about, or tell

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the audience a little bit about your life before Python?

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So my education was fairly focused on STEM for a while.

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So even though I'm in Canada, I

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went through the French school system, so

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they have you specialize fairly early.

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And I went through the science stream, where

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it's just all science all the time.

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You're not even taking French classes by the end.

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You're just super zeroed in, focused on

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math, chemistry, physics, biology, geology, et cetera.

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And that ended up being kind of, I don't

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want to say unbalanced, but like, literally technically unbalanced,

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because it was very far in one direction.

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And then I ended up sort of correcting into getting

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a degree in translation, which is incredibly puzzle based.

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So it was giving me a similar experience, but in a

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different space that was like a bit of a palate cleanser.

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And so I feel like I've zigzagged a

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bit where I was hardcore on STEM.

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Then I went into translation and got a degree.

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It's technically an Arts degree.

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Then I was programming for fun, and then I sort

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of, like the slalom, reduced into finding a middle spot

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between the two, which happened to be useful for tech

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because there are a lot of specialists and there need

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to be people who can kind of bridge gaps, I

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find, between the different specializations.

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I think we definitely need lots of different skills.

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Everybody contribute in their own way.

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Having all these different skills makes us all better.

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And I think I just want to add, like, I really

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admire what you did or what you did for Real Python.

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I know that even now, sometimes in a lot of communities,

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sometimes even in the PyLadies Slack, somebody would be asking questions

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like, how do I do X, how do I do Y?

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And then a lot of time I see the

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answer is that, oh, here's the Real Python article

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about it that's being referred to a lot.

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So I think it's really impressive.

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Thank you for your work on that.

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It's really fun to hear. Yeah.

256
00:12:00.152 --> 00:12:01.640
And just the fact that it was.

257
00:12:01.640 --> 00:12:04.376
I mean, it has to support itself and it does.

258
00:12:04.376 --> 00:12:06.376
The fact that a lot of that stuff is

259
00:12:06.376 --> 00:12:09.560
free, that has to be helping people as well.

260
00:12:09.560 --> 00:12:12.572
I similarly was self taught, and so, yeah, I paid

261
00:12:12.572 --> 00:12:14.956
for some courses, but a lot of it was just

262
00:12:14.956 --> 00:12:17.132
like, well, things are on the Internet, I'll go learn.

263
00:12:17.132 --> 00:12:19.660
And so it felt like a neat sort of

264
00:12:19.660 --> 00:12:22.178
circular, like, oh, I learned from the Internet.

265
00:12:22.178 --> 00:12:23.728
I'm now providing to the Internet, and

266
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other people will learn as well.

267
00:12:24.912 --> 00:12:25.600
Yeah.

268
00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:28.352
Maybe you would like to tell us more about what else

269
00:12:28.352 --> 00:12:32.510
you do in the Python community other than Real Python.

270
00:12:33.170 --> 00:12:36.148
I worked in education, Anaconda for a while.

271
00:12:36.148 --> 00:12:39.440
I think I mentioned the two book projects already.

272
00:12:39.970 --> 00:12:41.956
One very cool thing that I did

273
00:12:41.956 --> 00:12:45.460
was cover the Language Summit for 2021.

274
00:12:47.590 --> 00:12:50.216
It felt like an honor, and it also felt like,

275
00:12:50.216 --> 00:12:52.702
kind of like a lovely mesh of those two sides.

276
00:12:52.702 --> 00:12:55.468
I found where I could make it like a

277
00:12:55.468 --> 00:13:00.748
proper journalism tutorially really polished article, but also have

278
00:13:00.748 --> 00:13:05.530
it reflect something that's actually useful and correct.

279
00:13:05.530 --> 00:13:06.652
And that was very cool.

280
00:13:06.652 --> 00:13:09.484
But also, it was an honor to be a fly on the wall.

281
00:13:09.484 --> 00:13:13.792
Not many people go to that, and I got to basically be

282
00:13:13.792 --> 00:13:16.448
a door for the whole rest of the community onto that.

283
00:13:16.448 --> 00:13:19.104
And I took it very seriously, and I really wanted to

284
00:13:19.104 --> 00:13:21.364
make sure the articles were good, and I got lots of

285
00:13:21.364 --> 00:13:24.724
good feedback and, yeah, I really enjoyed doing that.

286
00:13:24.724 --> 00:13:25.204
Yeah.

287
00:13:25.204 --> 00:13:28.852
For those who don't know the Python Language Summit is

288
00:13:28.852 --> 00:13:32.756
an event at PyCon US that is usually attended only

289
00:13:32.756 --> 00:13:38.014
by 50 or so people, by mostly Python core developers.

290
00:13:38.014 --> 00:13:41.838
And so basically, the people who have a lot of influence,

291
00:13:41.838 --> 00:13:45.432
I would say, to how the Python language is like, and

292
00:13:45.432 --> 00:13:48.460
because of this meeting, is not open to public.

293
00:13:48.460 --> 00:13:51.836
Having an article, having blog post is how

294
00:13:51.836 --> 00:13:54.348
the rest of the Python community can learn

295
00:13:54.348 --> 00:13:56.508
of what was discussed in the community.

296
00:13:56.508 --> 00:13:57.852
So it's really important.

297
00:13:57.852 --> 00:14:01.372
It's the only way we get to share what

298
00:14:01.372 --> 00:14:04.050
happened at the Language Summit without all the core

299
00:14:04.050 --> 00:14:06.102
developers having to write their own notes.

300
00:14:06.102 --> 00:14:07.568
So it's really important.

301
00:14:07.568 --> 00:14:09.900
So thank you for your help on that.

302
00:14:10.750 --> 00:14:13.024
And there was another cool thing that happened at

303
00:14:13.024 --> 00:14:16.692
the Language Summit, was the previous year, I had

304
00:14:16.692 --> 00:14:19.092
read the articles, and I'd seen that there was

305
00:14:19.092 --> 00:14:21.818
talk of creating the Editorial Board for Python's docs.

306
00:14:21.818 --> 00:14:24.212
And then in the year that I covered it, I think.

307
00:14:24.212 --> 00:14:26.248
Mariatta, did you and Carol present, both

308
00:14:26.248 --> 00:14:27.810
of you together on the topic?

309
00:14:28.390 --> 00:14:30.072
I think the three of us.

310
00:14:30.072 --> 00:14:33.784
I don't remember. Me, Carol and Ned Batchelder, we all

311
00:14:33.784 --> 00:14:36.790
three of us wanted to have this.

312
00:14:36.790 --> 00:14:41.196
And so I had read about it before, but finally

313
00:14:41.196 --> 00:14:43.116
I was in the room where people were actually talking

314
00:14:43.116 --> 00:14:45.228
about it, and so I basically grabbed Carol, was like,

315
00:14:45.228 --> 00:14:46.840
I have to be on this, please.

316
00:14:47.850 --> 00:14:51.200
It sounded very much right up my alley, especially since

317
00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:55.408
the goals of the Editorial Board were sort of more.

318
00:14:55.408 --> 00:14:58.512
Where it was less about, well, like, we'll fix

319
00:14:58.512 --> 00:15:00.368
some typos, we'll see about this or this.

320
00:15:00.368 --> 00:15:01.088
It was more like, how do

321
00:15:01.088 --> 00:15:02.262
we make this better for learners?

322
00:15:02.262 --> 00:15:04.064
Because people who are using Python now are

323
00:15:04.064 --> 00:15:06.058
completely different from people who were using Python,

324
00:15:06.058 --> 00:15:08.932
like, ages ago, since now it's people's first

325
00:15:08.932 --> 00:15:10.932
language, just basically as a matter of course,

326
00:15:10.932 --> 00:15:12.468
as part of their standard education.

327
00:15:12.468 --> 00:15:16.152
And so I started working with

328
00:15:16.152 --> 00:15:18.760
Carol on that fairly slowly then.

329
00:15:18.760 --> 00:15:20.872
And then just recently, we published the

330
00:15:20.872 --> 00:15:23.662
PEP, and now we're really getting rolling.

331
00:15:23.662 --> 00:15:25.598
So I'd say the main thing I'm

332
00:15:25.598 --> 00:15:27.452
doing in the Python Community now is

333
00:15:27.452 --> 00:15:30.650
going to be Editorial Board stuff, actually.

334
00:15:30.650 --> 00:15:33.266
Can you explain a little bit more about the PEP?

335
00:15:33.266 --> 00:15:36.316
PEP 732, if I got the number right?

336
00:15:36.316 --> 00:15:36.444
Yeah.

337
00:15:36.444 --> 00:15:39.232
And that is an Editorial Board for those of us.

338
00:15:39.232 --> 00:15:41.536
I think most of us don't actually know it yet.

339
00:15:41.536 --> 00:15:42.720
Yeah, that's fair.

340
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:43.900
I'll let me explain.

341
00:15:44.510 --> 00:15:45.500
Fair enough.

342
00:15:48.510 --> 00:15:50.720
PEP 732. It's super short.

343
00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.112
If anyone wants to go check

344
00:15:52.112 --> 00:15:54.612
it out, just search PEP 732.

345
00:15:54.612 --> 00:15:59.268
So PEP 732 outlines the basic purpose of the

346
00:15:59.268 --> 00:16:02.052
Editorial board, what it is, what it isn't, and

347
00:16:02.052 --> 00:16:04.602
how it relates to other parts of the Python

348
00:16:04.602 --> 00:16:07.678
world, because there are other people working on docs.

349
00:16:07.678 --> 00:16:10.792
And the difference between the Editorial Board and other

350
00:16:10.792 --> 00:16:13.176
people working on docs is that the Editorial Board

351
00:16:13.176 --> 00:16:15.096
is going to deal with more big picture stuff,

352
00:16:15.096 --> 00:16:20.252
strategy and creating systems for people who are going

353
00:16:20.252 --> 00:16:22.748
to be contributing, basically to make it easier to

354
00:16:22.748 --> 00:16:25.516
contribute and to make it easier to learn

355
00:16:25.516 --> 00:16:26.594
Python.

356
00:16:26.594 --> 00:16:27.960
I have a question. So I hear a lot of

357
00:16:30.650 --> 00:16:32.928
Since 2016, it sounds like you've been

358
00:16:32.928 --> 00:16:35.184
doing quite a lot compared to

359
00:16:35.184 --> 00:16:37.024
It sounds like this would be for

360
00:16:37.024 --> 00:16:38.992
other people, like a full time job

361
00:16:38.992 --> 00:16:41.652
But I'm just kind of like, ask, how

362
00:16:41.652 --> 00:16:46.590
much time do you volunteer for Python?

363
00:16:47.410 --> 00:16:49.120
I don't actually know.

364
00:16:49.730 --> 00:16:50.932
Yeah, it varied a lot.

365
00:16:50.932 --> 00:16:52.980
I mean, for a while, it was like my

366
00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:57.080
full time job for a good chunk there.

367
00:16:57.080 --> 00:16:58.702
I mean, I count Real Python.

368
00:16:58.702 --> 00:17:01.816
Real Python wasn't volunteering, but it very squarely put me

369
00:17:01.816 --> 00:17:04.390
in the center of things in terms of Python.

370
00:17:04.390 --> 00:17:09.068
Otherwise, it's dipped and gone up.

371
00:17:09.068 --> 00:17:10.674
I think one of the reasons it's

372
00:17:10.674 --> 00:17:12.402
possible long term is because it's slow.

373
00:17:12.402 --> 00:17:14.498
I have previously described open source

374
00:17:14.498 --> 00:17:16.386
as like middle school, but slower.

375
00:17:16.386 --> 00:17:19.948
And so I feel like there is very

376
00:17:19.948 --> 00:17:21.743
little pressure to get things done quickly.

377
00:17:21.743 --> 00:17:24.726
At least my experience has been things aren't urgent.

378
00:17:24.726 --> 00:17:27.328
That has positives and negatives, because it

379
00:17:27.328 --> 00:17:29.040
might take forever to get your PR

380
00:17:29.040 --> 00:17:32.166
reviewed and might demoralize people from contributing.

381
00:17:32.166 --> 00:17:35.972
But it also means that people seem to be

382
00:17:35.972 --> 00:17:38.900
fairly conscious of the fact that we're all doing

383
00:17:38.900 --> 00:17:41.572
this for free in our limited spare time.

384
00:17:41.572 --> 00:17:43.332
So let's give each other a break.

385
00:17:43.332 --> 00:17:45.912
And sometimes it feels like every next

386
00:17:45.912 --> 00:17:47.966
word out of people's mouths is burnout.

387
00:17:47.966 --> 00:17:51.112
So simultaneously, it's a problem, but people

388
00:17:51.112 --> 00:17:53.032
are recognizing that it's a problem.

389
00:17:53.032 --> 00:17:56.168
So, bit of a meandering answer, but I think

390
00:17:56.168 --> 00:17:59.276
the fact that it's slow helps, and the fact

391
00:17:59.276 --> 00:18:02.348
that there is a general attempt to treat each

392
00:18:02.348 --> 00:18:04.908
other like people in a very concerted way.

393
00:18:04.908 --> 00:18:07.196
I find in the Python community, that really takes

394
00:18:07.196 --> 00:18:11.298
the edge off some of the more trying bits.

395
00:18:11.298 --> 00:18:13.824
If you're tired or if you're frustrated, if everyone

396
00:18:13.824 --> 00:18:16.192
sort of keeps their manners, then we might all

397
00:18:16.192 --> 00:18:18.608
continue working together, I think much more easily than

398
00:18:18.608 --> 00:18:21.620
if someone just sort of swans off and makes

399
00:18:21.620 --> 00:18:25.124
things more unpleasant than people necessarily want it to

400
00:18:25.124 --> 00:18:26.826
be for what is essentially a hobby.

401
00:18:26.826 --> 00:18:28.682
Have you managed to avoid

402
00:18:28.682 --> 00:18:31.146
getting a burnout from volunteering?

403
00:18:31.146 --> 00:18:35.108
No, I don't think anyone on

404
00:18:35.108 --> 00:18:37.780
this podcast will answer yes to that.

405
00:18:39.510 --> 00:18:40.760
So here's the thing.

406
00:18:40.760 --> 00:18:44.392
I know that right now in the market is hard,

407
00:18:44.392 --> 00:18:47.992
and right now I feel like everyone's having a hard

408
00:18:47.992 --> 00:18:50.444
time, and a lot of them, when I talk to

409
00:18:50.444 --> 00:18:52.476
people, I can see the drain on their face.

410
00:18:52.476 --> 00:18:53.932
I can see the emotion on their face.

411
00:18:53.932 --> 00:18:55.090
They're really struggling.

412
00:18:55.090 --> 00:18:58.188
And I feel like most of the people I

413
00:18:58.188 --> 00:18:59.836
talk to right now are having a hard time.

414
00:18:59.836 --> 00:19:02.030
It feels like a very common experience.

415
00:19:02.030 --> 00:19:05.456
I just want to say, like, even in the last month,

416
00:19:05.456 --> 00:19:09.568
I hear so many of my friends in the Python community.

417
00:19:09.568 --> 00:19:13.082
I don't know if I should say it, but they are burnout.

418
00:19:13.082 --> 00:19:15.790
Like, they're looking for different opportunities.

419
00:19:16.850 --> 00:19:19.722
The tech industry seems like changing.

420
00:19:19.722 --> 00:19:22.340
2023 seems to be, like, a strange year.

421
00:19:22.340 --> 00:19:24.640
I don't know when we last had a normal year.

422
00:19:25.170 --> 00:19:27.322
I know, but it's just, like, escalating.

423
00:19:27.322 --> 00:19:28.728
It's like you always think, okay, this

424
00:19:28.728 --> 00:19:30.088
was strange, and then the next year

425
00:19:30.088 --> 00:19:32.088
is going even more strange, and then.

426
00:19:32.088 --> 00:19:33.272
You're like, what on earth will next

427
00:19:33.272 --> 00:19:34.600
year be like at this point?

428
00:19:34.600 --> 00:19:38.152
I don't know, but, no, I want to add to it,

429
00:19:38.152 --> 00:19:41.788
which is that, yeah, I feel like that's sort of an

430
00:19:41.788 --> 00:19:43.884
elephant in the room that we might talk about or we

431
00:19:43.884 --> 00:19:46.236
might not talk about, depending on who we're talking with.

432
00:19:46.236 --> 00:19:48.252
But other friends of mine have also

433
00:19:48.252 --> 00:19:49.212
just said, like, you know what?

434
00:19:49.212 --> 00:19:50.204
I'm done with tech.

435
00:19:50.204 --> 00:19:52.678
And they are fabulous, super accomplished.

436
00:19:52.678 --> 00:19:54.380
I can't believe. They're amazing.

437
00:19:54.990 --> 00:19:56.454
And then they just like, no, I'm

438
00:19:56.454 --> 00:19:58.270
just going to go do this now.

439
00:19:58.270 --> 00:20:00.208
That is something that I'm seeing

440
00:20:00.208 --> 00:20:02.186
happen a lot, especially lately.

441
00:20:02.186 --> 00:20:03.316
I also remember.

442
00:20:03.316 --> 00:20:07.722
I have a very vague memory of some tweet ages

443
00:20:07.722 --> 00:20:11.748
ago, maybe some woman celebrating that she made it to

444
00:20:11.748 --> 00:20:13.236
Was it ten years in tech?

445
00:20:13.236 --> 00:20:14.328
Because now she beat the

446
00:20:14.328 --> 00:20:16.020
average or something like that.

447
00:20:17.670 --> 00:20:19.336
I don't remember the precise numbers,

448
00:20:19.336 --> 00:20:21.048
but the sentiment was, like, I

449
00:20:21.048 --> 00:20:23.406
have achieved being slightly above average.

450
00:20:23.406 --> 00:20:24.392
Congrats to me.

451
00:20:24.392 --> 00:20:25.800
Something to celebrate. Yeah.

452
00:20:25.800 --> 00:20:27.016
Do you have any?

453
00:20:27.016 --> 00:20:29.148
Maybe, like, I don't know, things in life to

454
00:20:29.148 --> 00:20:31.532
balance things out that help you balance things out?

455
00:20:31.532 --> 00:20:34.204
Like other non tech related things?

456
00:20:34.204 --> 00:20:35.308
Yes, definitely.

457
00:20:35.308 --> 00:20:38.486
I have gone in the extreme opposite direction

458
00:20:38.486 --> 00:20:40.646
in a lot of my other interests.

459
00:20:40.646 --> 00:20:45.392
I am very very interested in neolithic and Bronze Age

460
00:20:45.392 --> 00:20:48.544
textiles, and so I do a lot of research.

461
00:20:48.544 --> 00:20:52.270
Sometimes I make pieces based on archaeological finds.

462
00:20:53.330 --> 00:20:55.252
If I'm not here, I'm, like, doing something

463
00:20:55.252 --> 00:20:59.604
with sticks out far, far away from here.

464
00:20:59.604 --> 00:21:02.522
But I've started making yarn with a drop spindle,

465
00:21:02.522 --> 00:21:06.536
and I am really into just identifying moss and

466
00:21:06.536 --> 00:21:12.616
things that are the complete polar opposite of this.

467
00:21:12.616 --> 00:21:13.678
You've asked me a topic.

468
00:21:13.678 --> 00:21:15.032
I have to say one more thing

469
00:21:15.032 --> 00:21:18.390
on this, but neanderthal eating habits.

470
00:21:19.770 --> 00:21:24.322
Actually, I think there is either a YouTube

471
00:21:24.322 --> 00:21:28.870
channel or some blog post about neanderthal cuisine.

472
00:21:29.610 --> 00:21:30.316
I heard.

473
00:21:30.316 --> 00:21:32.224
I don't know, my partner was talking about that.

474
00:21:32.224 --> 00:21:32.896
Cool.

475
00:21:32.896 --> 00:21:35.008
Or Roman, I don't know, something.

476
00:21:35.008 --> 00:21:36.816
There's all kinds of stuff, but if someone

477
00:21:36.816 --> 00:21:39.878
wants something to Google, a really fun term

478
00:21:39.878 --> 00:21:42.928
is experimental archaeology, because there are people.

479
00:21:42.928 --> 00:21:44.292
Selly Pointer is a great one,

480
00:21:44.292 --> 00:21:45.626
since we're talking about YouTube.

481
00:21:45.626 --> 00:21:50.388
But basically you learn about artifacts by trying

482
00:21:50.388 --> 00:21:52.452
to recreate them and by recreating them.

483
00:21:52.452 --> 00:21:54.042
You see, like, okay, so the loom

484
00:21:54.042 --> 00:21:56.040
must have been created this way.

485
00:21:56.040 --> 00:21:58.478
And incidentally, one last more tangent.

486
00:21:58.478 --> 00:22:00.568
I have this one local group that I

487
00:22:00.568 --> 00:22:02.776
do a lot of ancient textile stuff with,

488
00:22:02.776 --> 00:22:05.294
and there's one technique that was called spraying.

489
00:22:05.294 --> 00:22:06.958
It was popular in the Neolithic.

490
00:22:06.958 --> 00:22:09.186
If you're asking someone on a programming podcast

491
00:22:09.186 --> 00:22:12.092
about their niche interest, something's going to happen.

492
00:22:12.092 --> 00:22:14.050
No, it is combined.

493
00:22:14.050 --> 00:22:15.708
Okay, I will tell you one last thing,

494
00:22:15.708 --> 00:22:19.470
because this does circle back to programming, but

495
00:22:19.470 --> 00:22:21.568
we're learning how to do spraying together, which

496
00:22:21.568 --> 00:22:25.254
is a neolithic textile technique that predates weaving.

497
00:22:25.254 --> 00:22:28.992
She was creating little notes for herself for how she

498
00:22:28.992 --> 00:22:31.616
was, so that she could recreate it and learn it.

499
00:22:31.616 --> 00:22:33.366
And the notes were essentially binary

500
00:22:33.366 --> 00:22:35.170
because it was like, I moved.

501
00:22:35.170 --> 00:22:36.724
She didn't intend to be binary, but it

502
00:22:36.724 --> 00:22:38.868
was binary, which also ties in with how

503
00:22:38.868 --> 00:22:41.570
the history of programming ties in with looms.

504
00:22:41.570 --> 00:22:45.912
Anyway, it sounds like reverse engineering, like you

505
00:22:45.912 --> 00:22:47.940
saw something and you tried to build.

506
00:22:49.190 --> 00:22:50.952
And a lot of it's geometry and, like,

507
00:22:50.952 --> 00:22:58.088
3d shapes in materials and chemistry, especially a

508
00:22:58.088 --> 00:23:01.106
lot of dyes, and things get really finicky.

509
00:23:01.106 --> 00:23:01.948
Anyway, there we go.

510
00:23:01.948 --> 00:23:04.810
There's my niche interest for the podcast.

511
00:23:04.810 --> 00:23:06.508
I think we all need that, and I

512
00:23:06.508 --> 00:23:09.990
think everybody needs niche interests to stay sane.

513
00:23:11.850 --> 00:23:14.656
And, yeah, I'm also into

514
00:23:14.656 --> 00:23:17.430
art restoration, so that's fun. And knitting.

515
00:23:17.430 --> 00:23:18.700
I mean, that's the other.

516
00:23:19.230 --> 00:23:20.848
Yeah, that's awesome.

517
00:23:20.848 --> 00:23:25.364
And I bet Mariatta also has some secret stuff going on.

518
00:23:25.364 --> 00:23:28.196
I'm into food, so when you say, like,

519
00:23:28.196 --> 00:23:33.300
learning about neanderthal eating habit, that's something I'm interested.

520
00:23:34.230 --> 00:23:36.808
Sometimes I like even figuring out how

521
00:23:36.808 --> 00:23:38.606
did people come up with this dish?

522
00:23:38.606 --> 00:23:40.500
I like to learn about the history.

523
00:23:41.270 --> 00:23:43.810
I even learned a history of ketchup.

524
00:23:44.710 --> 00:23:46.926
The word ketchup is a native

525
00:23:46.926 --> 00:23:49.042
word in my native language.

526
00:23:49.042 --> 00:23:52.162
Like in Malay, Indonesian language, we have the word "kecap",

527
00:23:52.162 --> 00:23:55.130
but it refers to a different type of sauce.

528
00:23:55.130 --> 00:23:58.492
The sauce is usually dark sauce things.

529
00:23:58.492 --> 00:24:01.606
You say soy sauce, that's ketchup. "Kecap".

530
00:24:01.606 --> 00:24:05.142
Salty sauce is like "kecap asin", "kecap manis"

531
00:24:05.142 --> 00:24:07.926
So "sauce" to me is "ketchup".

532
00:24:07.926 --> 00:24:11.956
But what American thinks of the word

533
00:24:11.956 --> 00:24:15.130
"ketchup" in my language is tomato sauce.

534
00:24:15.130 --> 00:24:16.510
It's reversed.

535
00:24:17.090 --> 00:24:20.266
We don't say ketchup with tomato.

536
00:24:20.266 --> 00:24:21.258
Tomato sauce.

537
00:24:21.258 --> 00:24:22.270
With sugar.

538
00:24:22.850 --> 00:24:24.234
With a lot of sugar.

539
00:24:24.234 --> 00:24:25.230
Ketchup.

540
00:24:25.230 --> 00:24:27.736
But I tried to dig it up.

541
00:24:27.736 --> 00:24:29.848
Why did we have this same word?

542
00:24:29.848 --> 00:24:33.742
It turns out when the Heinz or whoever tries

543
00:24:33.742 --> 00:24:36.710
to come up with the name of their sauce,

544
00:24:36.710 --> 00:24:39.742
they borrow it from Malaysian, from Indonesian.

545
00:24:39.742 --> 00:24:42.444
Like, they take this word from us.

546
00:24:42.444 --> 00:24:45.730
Anyway, it's totally random archaeology.

547
00:24:45.730 --> 00:24:47.390
No, that's really cool.

548
00:24:47.390 --> 00:24:50.208
It's all of the mysteries that you can find in words.

549
00:24:50.208 --> 00:24:53.696
Coming back to words and your... tada! and

550
00:24:53.696 --> 00:24:58.730
your multifaceted interest in computer science and languages.

551
00:24:59.310 --> 00:25:02.228
I was wondering, how has this kind

552
00:25:02.228 --> 00:25:03.636
of come up in your work?

553
00:25:03.636 --> 00:25:06.404
Like this intersection between computer

554
00:25:06.404 --> 00:25:08.682
science and translation and language?

555
00:25:08.682 --> 00:25:13.810
Yes, I guess I found out that it's really useful.

556
00:25:13.810 --> 00:25:16.088
Generally, I find a big pressure to just be an

557
00:25:16.088 --> 00:25:19.246
engineer and everyone has to go be an engineer.

558
00:25:19.246 --> 00:25:22.312
And I feel like people are confused why

559
00:25:22.312 --> 00:25:24.270
I don't just go be a pure engineer.

560
00:25:24.270 --> 00:25:28.648
But I've also found that the opportunities for people who

561
00:25:28.648 --> 00:25:31.548
can do multiple things, like if you can code and

562
00:25:31.548 --> 00:25:33.004
you can talk to people and you can write and

563
00:25:33.004 --> 00:25:35.164
you can teach and you can organize and you can

564
00:25:35.164 --> 00:25:38.380
learn whatever else new thing is required of you, then

565
00:25:38.380 --> 00:25:43.488
opportunities might come to you fairly quickly and well enough

566
00:25:43.488 --> 00:25:45.408
that by the time someone's trying to hire you for

567
00:25:45.408 --> 00:25:47.408
an engineer role, you might actually be making more than

568
00:25:47.408 --> 00:25:49.070
a junior engineer.

569
00:25:49.070 --> 00:25:51.056
It just comes sometimes.

570
00:25:51.056 --> 00:25:53.180
So there is definitely a need.

571
00:25:54.290 --> 00:25:57.508
The jobs can be weirder and less common.

572
00:25:57.508 --> 00:26:00.452
So when I look at job postings, I'm not

573
00:26:00.452 --> 00:26:02.628
just looking like look up like Django developer or

574
00:26:02.628 --> 00:26:05.390
like data analyst or something very structured.

575
00:26:05.390 --> 00:26:10.280
I'm looking at all kinds of things, and I have often been

576
00:26:10.280 --> 00:26:14.072
like the first X at a company or been given a job.

577
00:26:14.072 --> 00:26:15.416
Like, we don't know what this job is.

578
00:26:15.416 --> 00:26:16.760
Go figure it out.

579
00:26:16.760 --> 00:26:19.468
Which I personally find fun, since you get

580
00:26:19.468 --> 00:26:21.468
to make your own job and kind of

581
00:26:21.468 --> 00:26:24.092
create some direction and agency for yourself.

582
00:26:24.092 --> 00:26:27.708
But yeah, there are fewer jobs like that than just, I

583
00:26:27.708 --> 00:26:31.676
am an engineer, but the people who are looking for you

584
00:26:31.676 --> 00:26:34.416
are also having a harder time finding people like you.

585
00:26:34.416 --> 00:26:36.752
So it depends what path you like.

586
00:26:36.752 --> 00:26:38.038
But I like this middle path.

587
00:26:38.038 --> 00:26:42.032
There's a lot of variety and it feels more social.

588
00:26:42.032 --> 00:26:45.268
It feels like I can still move in

589
00:26:45.268 --> 00:26:47.012
a lot of different directions from here.

590
00:26:47.012 --> 00:26:48.132
I don't feel boxed in.

591
00:26:48.132 --> 00:26:50.308
Like I could still become a specialist as

592
00:26:50.308 --> 00:26:52.964
long as I still keep every door open.

593
00:26:52.964 --> 00:26:55.748
It means that know constantly learning a lot of things and

594
00:26:55.748 --> 00:26:57.732
I don't know what my next job will be like.

595
00:26:57.732 --> 00:27:00.104
And so sometimes I'm like, I don't know, should I

596
00:27:00.104 --> 00:27:02.344
take courses on instructional design, or should I get my

597
00:27:02.344 --> 00:27:04.248
next AWS certification, or should I do this?

598
00:27:04.248 --> 00:27:04.888
Or should I do this?

599
00:27:04.888 --> 00:27:08.776
Or should like, I feel like that mentality might also

600
00:27:08.776 --> 00:27:11.916
be not uncommon among people who are active in open

601
00:27:11.916 --> 00:27:14.204
source who just tend to fill like, there may be

602
00:27:14.204 --> 00:27:16.828
a type who tends to fill their schedule, who I

603
00:27:16.828 --> 00:27:19.132
think might be drawn to open source as well.

604
00:27:19.132 --> 00:27:22.614
So that might be a recurring theme in these chats.

605
00:27:22.614 --> 00:27:24.688
And maybe, I think one of the things that

606
00:27:24.688 --> 00:27:28.592
is also, if you're open like that to different

607
00:27:28.592 --> 00:27:32.064
learning ways and different ways of interacting with people,

608
00:27:32.064 --> 00:27:34.052
it's also opening up the space where you're not

609
00:27:34.052 --> 00:27:36.004
needing to be an expert in everything.

610
00:27:36.004 --> 00:27:39.130
You can collaborate with other people and leverage

611
00:27:39.130 --> 00:27:41.556
that other people are good at something and

612
00:27:41.556 --> 00:27:44.676
you have indicating to figure that out, right?

613
00:27:44.676 --> 00:27:45.098
Totally.

614
00:27:45.098 --> 00:27:47.240
And then it helps you bring people together,

615
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:49.688
it helps you accomplish bigger things, and it

616
00:27:49.688 --> 00:27:52.600
helps you train people to replace you.

617
00:27:52.600 --> 00:27:54.120
These are all good things.

618
00:27:54.120 --> 00:27:57.822
These are all signs of growth, both individually

619
00:27:57.822 --> 00:27:59.740
and within a community and within a company.

620
00:27:59.740 --> 00:28:01.346
So that's the opposite.

621
00:28:01.346 --> 00:28:04.002
Like things that you can do to stave off stagnation.

622
00:28:04.002 --> 00:28:04.396
I think.

623
00:28:04.396 --> 00:28:07.984
I think it's actually a good thing being able to

624
00:28:07.984 --> 00:28:11.424
adapt and being flexible, being able to work with a

625
00:28:11.424 --> 00:28:15.360
lot of different types of people, because it's not actually

626
00:28:15.360 --> 00:28:20.330
easy, it's hard working with people worldwide.

627
00:28:21.170 --> 00:28:24.426
It takes a certain skill and intentionality

628
00:28:24.426 --> 00:28:26.080
to being able to work together.

629
00:28:27.890 --> 00:28:29.920
So what is next for you?

630
00:28:32.050 --> 00:28:33.348
I think you mentioned to me you

631
00:28:33.348 --> 00:28:36.468
have a secret project or something about.

632
00:28:36.468 --> 00:28:40.712
It ties in, because we just had PyLadiesCon con recently, and it

633
00:28:40.712 --> 00:28:45.510
ties in with my talk at PyLadiesCon, which was based on

634
00:28:45.510 --> 00:28:49.884
a really short skimmable article that I wrote called How To

635
00:28:49.884 --> 00:28:52.370
Make a Docs Site: Shortcuts for Busy Devs

636
00:28:52.370 --> 00:28:54.924
And that article was aimed at developers who

637
00:28:54.924 --> 00:28:57.580
are not particularly interested in making docs, but

638
00:28:57.580 --> 00:28:58.892
for whatever reason they need one.

639
00:28:58.892 --> 00:29:00.844
Maybe they have an open source project that they

640
00:29:00.844 --> 00:29:03.798
want to share, or they are at a startup

641
00:29:03.798 --> 00:29:06.288
that now needs to create its first doc site

642
00:29:06.288 --> 00:29:08.016
and they just need to get something out.

643
00:29:08.016 --> 00:29:11.920
So in that article, I gave them a super short,

644
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:15.066
opinionated, practical guide to have a path of least resistance

645
00:29:15.066 --> 00:29:17.914
towards just getting a doc site out that is decent.

646
00:29:17.914 --> 00:29:21.268
And I'm also working on sort of successor to

647
00:29:21.268 --> 00:29:24.392
that that is longer and more involved and is

648
00:29:24.392 --> 00:29:28.238
still very practical, but is just a richer resource

649
00:29:28.238 --> 00:29:32.120
like gives templates and checklists and systematizes the process

650
00:29:32.120 --> 00:29:34.712
of making docs to make it less painless for

651
00:29:34.712 --> 00:29:37.582
people who are not particularly interested in docs.

652
00:29:37.582 --> 00:29:38.894
Because if you are interested in docs,

653
00:29:38.894 --> 00:29:40.572
there are resources out there for you.

654
00:29:40.572 --> 00:29:42.402
There's the book: Docs for Developers.

655
00:29:42.402 --> 00:29:44.604
The Product is Docs. Docs Like Code.

656
00:29:44.604 --> 00:29:48.236
But I feel like those books are for docs people who

657
00:29:48.236 --> 00:29:50.970
want to sit down and read a book about docs.

658
00:29:50.970 --> 00:29:52.492
They're excellent. I own them.

659
00:29:52.492 --> 00:29:53.744
I don't have them here.

660
00:29:53.744 --> 00:29:55.664
I had them here on the PyLadies talk so

661
00:29:55.664 --> 00:29:58.502
that if someone recommended books or asked for recommendations,

662
00:29:58.502 --> 00:30:00.140
I could put like, these two are great.

663
00:30:00.770 --> 00:30:02.880
Or three, because I have anyway.

664
00:30:03.810 --> 00:30:08.068
But I find that those have more theory in

665
00:30:08.068 --> 00:30:10.740
them than some audiences might have patience for.

666
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:12.948
So I wanted to create sort of

667
00:30:12.948 --> 00:30:15.492
a very systematized golden path of least

668
00:30:15.492 --> 00:30:18.580
resistance towards making that. It's not public.

669
00:30:19.350 --> 00:30:21.784
I wasn't even sure how much detail I was going to

670
00:30:21.784 --> 00:30:24.520
go into, but apparently it all just fell out of me.

671
00:30:24.520 --> 00:30:25.868
No problem.

672
00:30:25.868 --> 00:30:28.440
That is something I'm working on.

673
00:30:30.170 --> 00:30:30.828
I don't know.

674
00:30:30.828 --> 00:30:34.076
I've been at companies, at startups, a few different

675
00:30:34.076 --> 00:30:37.148
startups where they have no docs at all.

676
00:30:37.148 --> 00:30:38.140
At all.

677
00:30:39.550 --> 00:30:42.752
And because there is no docs, when it's time

678
00:30:42.752 --> 00:30:46.048
to off board somebody, like when somebody leave there

679
00:30:46.048 --> 00:30:50.690
is this two weeks of grueling handover.

680
00:30:50.690 --> 00:30:52.596
Tell us everything you know from

681
00:30:52.596 --> 00:30:55.250
two years into these two weeks.

682
00:30:55.250 --> 00:30:59.562
I think documentation should just be done continuously.

683
00:30:59.562 --> 00:31:02.468
It should become part of the work you do.

684
00:31:02.468 --> 00:31:05.498
As you write code, you write test, you write doc.

685
00:31:05.498 --> 00:31:07.918
It's part of the package in my opinion.

686
00:31:07.918 --> 00:31:10.974
Yeah, it's more sustainable.

687
00:31:10.974 --> 00:31:12.550
It is worth it.

688
00:31:12.550 --> 00:31:16.200
Are you looking for testers for your new project?

689
00:31:16.730 --> 00:31:17.932
I will be.

690
00:31:17.932 --> 00:31:22.760
I don't have anything to give them to test that.

691
00:31:23.850 --> 00:31:26.920
I need to be ready to share this with people.

692
00:31:30.330 --> 00:31:32.076
Maybe there's like a place where people

693
00:31:32.076 --> 00:31:34.924
can reach you and put your waitlist.

694
00:31:34.924 --> 00:31:35.968
Yes, no, I would love that.

695
00:31:35.968 --> 00:31:37.296
That's an excellent idea.

696
00:31:37.296 --> 00:31:39.984
My handle on GitHub is jablonskidev

697
00:31:39.984 --> 00:31:43.092
J-A-B-L-O-N-S-K-I-D-E-V

698
00:31:43.092 --> 00:31:45.492
My personal site is jojab.dev

699
00:31:45.492 --> 00:31:47.700
J-O-J-A-B dot dev

700
00:31:47.700 --> 00:31:48.644
If you want to find me

701
00:31:48.644 --> 00:31:50.874
on LinkedIn, just search Joanna Jablonski.

702
00:31:50.874 --> 00:31:54.132
I'm very findable and yeah, I'm always happy

703
00:31:54.132 --> 00:31:56.138
to talk about developer education and docs.

704
00:31:56.138 --> 00:31:57.140
So hit me up.

705
00:31:57.140 --> 00:31:58.250
I would love to chat.

706
00:31:58.250 --> 00:31:58.788
Awesome.

707
00:31:58.788 --> 00:32:00.820
Well, thank you, Joanna, for speaking

708
00:32:00.820 --> 00:32:02.640
with us and sharing your experience.

709
00:32:03.970 --> 00:32:05.372
And thank you for having me.

710
00:32:05.372 --> 00:32:06.834
And thank you for making this podcast.

711
00:32:06.834 --> 00:32:08.133
Thank you for it