WEBVTT

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Hi, everyone.

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Welcome to PyPodcats, the Hidden

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Figures of Python podcast series.

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The PyPodcats is  a series that is created

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by me, Georgi, and here there's Cheuk, Tereza, and

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Mariatta,  all four of us coming together to highlight

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voices from under-represented group members of the Python community.

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Now we follow the PSF Code of

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Conduct to help interactions and to keep

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Python a positive, successful, and growing community.

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If you would like to know more about the

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details of the Code of Conduct, you can head

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out straight onto https://pypodcats.live/conduct

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A little bit of self introduction.

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My name is Geogrgi  and I am

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hosting today live at Porto, Portugal.

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Normally I'm in Amsterdam.

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And to you, Cheuk.

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Hi, I'm Cheuk and I live in London.

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I love Python.

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I am a PyLady. I don't know.

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Yeah, I'm addicted to Python.

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Then we have our guest today, Jessica.

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Hello, Jessica.

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Hello.

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Yeah, so thanks for having me on, you two.

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Yeah, my name is Jessica.

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I'm a open source maintainer primarily

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of like, different Python projects.

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I am in Denmark right now, but I love

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to travel and I love to go to different

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conferences, mostly as a speaker, but I also really

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want to just go to more as an attendee.

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So I'm all over the place.

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But, yeah, right now I'm in Denmark, where I live.

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Super.

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So actually, our first question was

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to ask Jessica to describe herself.

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I think she literally described herself already.

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So we are going to skip the first question.

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Yeah, actually, Jessica and I met in a

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conference in Bilbao and she was speaking there.

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So, yeah, it was my first time speaking

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and I had two lovely talks there. It was great.

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Wow.

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So from the first time you spoke until

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now, how many talks have you given?

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So at physical conferences, I have done those two.

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I've also done a few, done a few interviews and

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I've done a few live streams with some other people,

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and I'm working on a lot of different stuff that's

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coming in the next weeks and next couple of months.

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Well, sounds like a very busy schedule.

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Yes, it is.

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So let's like, rewind, rewind all

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the way back to the beginning.

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How did you first get in contact with a computer?

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Yeah, how did I first get in contact?

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Leave aside.

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Yeah, I feel so old.

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But then, then yet again, not really.

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So how did I first get in contact with a computer?

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It was like mini probably.

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I lived at home.

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I was, what, five or six when I

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started playing video games on the computer.

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I started playing age-appropriate, I want

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to say age-appropriate video games.

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It was age-appropriate.

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Oh, I play a lot of age-

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inappropriate video games when I was little.

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No, but it's mostly, it's like there's a lot of

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video games where people in their start scenes will play

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them even though they are rated for like 16 or

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18 plus, which is what I did at the time.

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It's totally innocent.

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Also, Jessica is very young, so like,

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probably it's easier to like, have a

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computer at home when you're younger.

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When I say video games, when I say video games,

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it was very much, it was very much like very

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basic, like images on the screen, you click on things,

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they do flashy things, and that's it.

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It wasn't anything near as realistic as they are now.

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Not Tetris.

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It was like, I want to say worse than Tetris.

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It was worse than Tetris level.

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I said it was the Family computer on the Small,

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like on the slow dial-up connections that I was.

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That was great.

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We all have memory of those and you

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have to fight over the phone line.

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You have to like ask your mom to not

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use the phone while you're on the Internet.

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Yeah.

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The great thing was that I mainly played offline games,

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so I didn't care about my mom having hour long

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conversations with the rest of the family over the phone.

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That is great.

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Yeah, but yeah, I fell in love from the very

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first moment I really got to use a computer.

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They had to sometimes drag me away from it.

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So how do you actually start coding?

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Like writing, learning how to

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program and stuff like that?

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Yeah.

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So now I'm really going to age myself a lot.

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Honestly, it's not really a secret how old I am.

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It's very out there.

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So around 14 years ago, when I

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was a little girl at ten years.

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Old, not that old.

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I know. Do the math.

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I already have one midlife crisis,

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so you can do the math.

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I started playing a very blocky

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game that many people probably know. Minecraft.

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Oh, yeah.

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And me and my friends had a lot of fun with

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it, like when we were sitting together, but we wanted to

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be able to play together when we were not physically together.

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So I looked into how to make a server for us.

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So we just started playing on a server normally,

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and then we thought it was really fun to

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build stuff and host games and so on.

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So we started opening it up to the public.

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And a year, one and a half years later, we

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were running one of the biggest server networks here in

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Denmark with 3400 concurrent players doing peak hours.

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And that included me.

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I was the Primary tech,

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I was the only tech person more or less

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Primary to only.

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Primary only tech person.

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So I had to learn a lot about networking.

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And then I saw a lot of international videos

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of people playing Minecraft as well, where they played

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on these big servers that had custom stuff.

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And I was looking at it and I was

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like, how can I make stuff like that?

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So I looked into it and I saw there is, there's

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like this entire server modding, like you could write plugins in

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Java to the server where you could add custom logic.

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And then from that I just started learning programming.

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And now again, just like the original, falling in love

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with the computer, I fell in love with programming.

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Oh, that's cool.

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And then how did it step into like Python?

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Well, great question, fast forward

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another three or four years.

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Me and my friends were getting older, we

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kind of started losing interest in Minecraft.

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And I also coded a lot of Minecraft

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related stuff, again mostly for the server side.

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But I wanted to get into more

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general programming because I really loved learning

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about tech, I really love programming.

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I figured I wanted to make desktop applications because I

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was on a computer, I could use a computer.

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So I wanted to make stuff that

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I could use on the computer.

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And I started trying to do that

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in Java and it, it worked.

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I'm very impressed that I got it to work, but it

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worked, but it was very clunky and I wanted something better.

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So I researched it and Python immediately came up and

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I looked into UI libraries and I looked into auto

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updating of like desktop applications and stuff like that.

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And then I tried writing my first program

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in Python that just did something simple.

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I always started with a calculator and then

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I converted it into a UI calculator.

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It's all in Python with auto updating.

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I was super proud of myself.

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And then it just took off from there

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and it spiraled completely out of control into

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this thing I've gotten myself into now.

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Yeah, so you have the Pypandoc, right?

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Or you're like taking someone's

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project and maintaining it.

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Yeah, I took it over. So,

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Yeah, I took it over.

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Could you tell us more about Pypandoc?

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Because I also don't know much about it and

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where you're maintaining this library, so you must know.

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Yeah, sure.

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So there is a CLI tool called Pandoc that is

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a universal document converter that uses the markdown markup format

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to convert between any other, more or less any other

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format you can think about anything from HTML to word

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to PDF to PowerPoint to Wiki to open document formatted

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All the different formats you might want to use,

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and then you have markdown as the intermediary format where

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you actually write your document contents.

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Of course, Python, we love having

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Python libraries to do everything.

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We don't want to call external stuff if

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we have a Python library for it.

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So way back when, when, I wanted to make a

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text editor for the blind, because I myself is totally

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blind, so I wanted to make a text editor where

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I could control the visual formatting much, like much better

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than I could at the time, in, people at the

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time couldn't word or other like mainstream text based.

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Yeah, um, take big editors.

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And it was also before like stuff like VS Code

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and stuff like that really came out.

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So I found Pypandoc, which was

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this Python wrapper around Pandoc that made

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it easy to work with from Python.

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And I utilize, I utilized that

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to basically power my text editor.

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And then I saw that he wasn't updating it

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anymore and I started making more and more like,

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issues and pull requests that got accepted.

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But like, he had kind of like

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not worked on it for a while.

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So I just at one point emailed him and

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asked, hey, if you're not planning on updating it

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anymore, is it okay if I take it over?

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Because I can see it's still very widely used and

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I love it and I would love to maintain it.

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And he was like, yeah, sure, I'm

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just gonna talk to the other maintainer.

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He was also okay with it.

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And then they transferred the GitHub repository and

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the Package Index publish rights to my account

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and the rest as you see is history.

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Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah.

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I mean, being, even, to like, normal, any one of

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us being a maintainer is already really tough, but like,

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you not being able to like, see and still being

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able to maintain the whole project, that is like so

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inspiring for so many people around there, you know?

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Yep.

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I'm just curious, despite all these challenges, how do

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you continue to learn and like to, to improve?

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Are there any like, difficulties or

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things like that along the way?

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When, when there's text based

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tutorials, always the best.

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Because I read approximately twice as fast as

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the, as an average human reader, I read

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around six to 700 words a minute.

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So I can take in information

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Four times faster than me.

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Yeah, YouTube can only allow three times speed.

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It's not fast enough.

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Fair enough.

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So when there's text based tutorials for stuff,

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I can take in information really fast.

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Generally speaking, I haven't had a problem learning because

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there's a lot of books on the topic.

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There's a lot of articles on

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the topic that I've been consuming.

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Mostly articles.

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Not really a big book person, but many,

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many articles, many tutorials and just experimenting.

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Recently, though, what I've gotten into is a little

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more graphical in nature, so that's a little more

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difficult, but I'm getting the hang of it.

262
00:12:53.612 --> 00:12:54.304
Wow.

263
00:12:55.004 --> 00:12:55.668
Yeah.

264
00:12:55.668 --> 00:12:58.028
I also heard from Cheuk

265
00:12:58.028 --> 00:13:00.544
that you've contributed to Poetry.

266
00:13:01.084 --> 00:13:03.516
So could you just tell me a little bit

267
00:13:03.516 --> 00:13:06.876
more about your contribution and what is Poetry?

268
00:13:06.876 --> 00:13:11.878
So Poetry is a dependency manager and

269
00:13:11.878 --> 00:13:14.910
a build tool all in one.

270
00:13:14.910 --> 00:13:18.166
It basically wraps around and makes

271
00:13:18.166 --> 00:13:20.134
virtual environments for all your projects.

272
00:13:20.134 --> 00:13:22.750
You have this Poetry file where you can add

273
00:13:22.750 --> 00:13:25.710
an update dependency with a CLI command, and then

274
00:13:25.710 --> 00:13:28.870
you can build and publish your packages to the

275
00:13:28.870 --> 00:13:30.598
Package Index or a custom index.

276
00:13:30.598 --> 00:13:32.334
All from Poetry.

277
00:13:32.334 --> 00:13:36.376
So it's a CLI tool, like many, like others, but it's

278
00:13:36.376 --> 00:13:38.984
There's a bunch of them these days.

279
00:13:38.984 --> 00:13:41.784
But Poetry, at least what I found was really

280
00:13:41.784 --> 00:13:44.568
the first big one to, like, break through, really

281
00:13:44.568 --> 00:13:46.952
was what other people were using, other than the

282
00:13:46.952 --> 00:13:51.768
combination of pip, virtualenv and setuptools.

283
00:13:51.768 --> 00:13:54.032
I'm kind of, like, very interested in your

284
00:13:54.032 --> 00:13:56.320
experience because, like, I am pretty sure that

285
00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:58.544
your experience is very different from mine.

286
00:13:58.544 --> 00:14:01.576
Like, from, like we said that we play video games when we

287
00:14:01.576 --> 00:14:04.984
were a kid to, like, maybe now we go to conferences.

288
00:14:04.984 --> 00:14:06.944
When you talk about you play Minecraft,

289
00:14:06.944 --> 00:14:09.942
I'm quite interested about, like, how the

290
00:14:09.942 --> 00:14:13.550
experience, because from my experience, Minecraft, you

291
00:14:13.550 --> 00:14:15.694
know, you have to control your character.

292
00:14:15.694 --> 00:14:16.934
You have to, like, build this

293
00:14:16.934 --> 00:14:18.854
block and things like that.

294
00:14:18.854 --> 00:14:20.822
But for someone who uses screen

295
00:14:20.822 --> 00:14:22.678
reader, like, what's your experience?

296
00:14:22.678 --> 00:14:24.838
You found it, like, very easy or very

297
00:14:24.838 --> 00:14:27.286
hard to control or, like, things like that.

298
00:14:27.286 --> 00:14:27.718
Yeah.

299
00:14:27.718 --> 00:14:32.782
So the little extra nuance was that I lost

300
00:14:32.782 --> 00:14:34.518
the rest of my sight when I was 18.

301
00:14:34.518 --> 00:14:36.974
So in 2018.

302
00:14:38.434 --> 00:14:41.250
So back in the day when I, when I

303
00:14:41.250 --> 00:14:43.842
was playing Minecraft, I could see a little bit,

304
00:14:43.842 --> 00:14:46.002
like, we're still talking like two or 3%.

305
00:14:46.002 --> 00:14:48.626
So it's like nothing groundbreaking, nothing new,

306
00:14:48.626 --> 00:14:50.654
getting a driver's license or anything.

307
00:14:51.674 --> 00:14:52.770
But I could see enough.

308
00:14:52.770 --> 00:14:56.474
And that was important because Minecraft by nature

309
00:14:56.474 --> 00:15:00.290
had very high color contrast, like, unintentionally.

310
00:15:00.290 --> 00:15:03.046
So it was much easier to see and

311
00:15:03.046 --> 00:15:05.638
play around with compared to many other games.

312
00:15:05.638 --> 00:15:06.594
Yeah, right.

313
00:15:07.574 --> 00:15:09.654
I know some games now, they have this, like,

314
00:15:09.654 --> 00:15:13.574
high contrast options for folks who need high contrast

315
00:15:13.574 --> 00:15:16.390
as well, but unfortunately, not all of them has.

316
00:15:16.390 --> 00:15:18.590
It's just like other technology, like, you

317
00:15:18.590 --> 00:15:20.622
know, websites, some of them are screen

318
00:15:20.622 --> 00:15:22.862
reader friendly, some of them are not. Really.

319
00:15:22.862 --> 00:15:23.950
Yes, exactly.

320
00:15:23.950 --> 00:15:24.790
Yeah.

321
00:15:24.790 --> 00:15:26.790
But how about conferences like is it?

322
00:15:26.790 --> 00:15:30.162
You know, I guess it must be, like, very challenging for

323
00:15:30.162 --> 00:15:33.338
you to, you know, be far away from home and, you

324
00:15:33.338 --> 00:15:35.962
know, go to a event that is full of people, but

325
00:15:35.962 --> 00:15:38.770
maybe not everybody knows your need and stuff like that.

326
00:15:38.770 --> 00:15:43.674
So I'm lucky that a lot of things working for me.

327
00:15:43.674 --> 00:15:44.554
I love traveling.

328
00:15:44.554 --> 00:15:48.002
First of all, I love, especially traveling

329
00:15:48.002 --> 00:15:50.066
by plane is I love that.

330
00:15:50.066 --> 00:15:52.698
The second is I'm a huge extrovert.

331
00:15:52.698 --> 00:15:54.098
I'm pretty sure Cheuk can

332
00:15:54.098 --> 00:15:56.054
Oh, we can hear that and see that.

333
00:15:56.994 --> 00:15:57.930
I'm pretty sure.

334
00:15:57.930 --> 00:16:01.664
I'm pretty sure Cheuk  can sign off on that.

335
00:16:01.664 --> 00:16:04.080
You saw me be around people in Bilbao

336
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:06.528
So we were having fun at

337
00:16:06.528 --> 00:16:10.544
the cocktail party, like, you know, the drinks

338
00:16:10.544 --> 00:16:13.432
party that we have so many Spanish food.

339
00:16:13.432 --> 00:16:19.084
And yes, it was an interesting experience.

340
00:16:21.824 --> 00:16:25.104
Okay, sounds like there's some brackets behind.

341
00:16:26.524 --> 00:16:28.068
So I'm also curious.

342
00:16:28.068 --> 00:16:30.508
When you're talking about attending a conference,

343
00:16:30.508 --> 00:16:32.836
like, before you attend a conference, do

344
00:16:32.836 --> 00:16:34.740
you actually, like, read to see if

345
00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:39.704
they have specific, like, accessibility?

346
00:16:48.524 --> 00:16:51.184
This has been the entire freaking day.

347
00:16:54.244 --> 00:16:57.244
I'm not very good with

348
00:16:57.244 --> 00:17:01.452
so accessibility, it's okay.

349
00:17:01.452 --> 00:17:04.051
Like, do you actually read like, and

350
00:17:04.051 --> 00:17:06.212
check before you attend any conference?

351
00:17:06.212 --> 00:17:09.523
Like, okay, are they friendly to people with

352
00:17:09.523 --> 00:17:13.003
disabilities or is there any actually, do you

353
00:17:13.003 --> 00:17:15.404
read, like, before you attend a conference?

354
00:17:15.404 --> 00:17:18.503
You know, I always try to find something, or

355
00:17:19.354 --> 00:17:22.874
Yeah, I always try to find something, but it's very

356
00:17:22.874 --> 00:17:26.617
rarely, if at all, they ever have it publicly available.

357
00:17:26.617 --> 00:17:26.945
They,

358
00:17:26.945 --> 00:17:29.746
I've never seen a conference where they have

359
00:17:29.746 --> 00:17:32.762
this accessibility info readily available for what they

360
00:17:32.762 --> 00:17:37.014
do with people that has physical disabilities.

361
00:17:38.674 --> 00:17:43.254
Yeah, I resorted to just writing them an email.

362
00:17:44.754 --> 00:17:47.290
So far that's been very successful.

363
00:17:47.290 --> 00:17:49.074
Also to let them know that you're coming

364
00:17:49.074 --> 00:17:50.898
and that you're like, in my case, that

365
00:17:50.898 --> 00:17:54.034
I'm fully blind and, yeah, that I'm attending.

366
00:17:54.034 --> 00:17:55.610
And I was like, in my case,

367
00:17:55.610 --> 00:17:57.426
that I'm a speaker or whatever, whatever.

368
00:17:57.426 --> 00:17:58.834
Just like, hey, can we do something?

369
00:17:58.834 --> 00:18:00.170
Can we figure something out?

370
00:18:00.170 --> 00:18:04.562
And yeah, they've always been very good at

371
00:18:04.562 --> 00:18:07.690
the whole accessibility, but I just wish that

372
00:18:07.690 --> 00:18:10.778
that information was more readily available.

373
00:18:10.778 --> 00:18:13.922
So people that maybe not was as just like,

374
00:18:13.922 --> 00:18:16.402
out there going as I am also know that,

375
00:18:16.402 --> 00:18:20.744
hey, there's actually things that they're going to do.

376
00:18:20.744 --> 00:18:22.552
Yeah, that's true.

377
00:18:22.552 --> 00:18:26.344
Like, I know that you're very outgoing and you, like,

378
00:18:26.344 --> 00:18:29.512
don't mind emailing and taking one step forward to ask,

379
00:18:29.512 --> 00:18:32.336
but I think if someone who may also have other

380
00:18:32.336 --> 00:18:35.368
needs or they feel a little bit, you know, you

381
00:18:35.368 --> 00:18:37.768
know, there's extra step, like, we should make it easier

382
00:18:37.768 --> 00:18:40.368
for people who need extra help.

383
00:18:40.368 --> 00:18:41.352
Yeah.

384
00:18:41.352 --> 00:18:45.784
So organizers for conferences out there, if you're hearing

385
00:18:45.784 --> 00:18:49.816
this podcast, please make a little effort to just

386
00:18:49.816 --> 00:18:54.232
write down what you can provide for the potential

387
00:18:54.232 --> 00:18:56.960
attendees so that they will feel comfortable.

388
00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.488
Yeah, I'm actually working on something like that and

389
00:19:00.488 --> 00:19:03.984
are reaching out and looking for conference organizers.

390
00:19:03.984 --> 00:19:05.600
I'm actually working on something like that.

391
00:19:05.600 --> 00:19:08.128
So there's like, hopefully a place where people

392
00:19:08.128 --> 00:19:10.792
can see other people's experiences and also just

393
00:19:10.792 --> 00:19:13.816
see what conference organizers have said that they

394
00:19:13.816 --> 00:19:16.944
are like, that they are capable and. Yeah.

395
00:19:16.944 --> 00:19:19.804
Capable to do for people with physical disabilities.

396
00:19:20.624 --> 00:19:22.272
Yeah, that's so true.

397
00:19:22.272 --> 00:19:24.280
I think it's a very good message to get out.

398
00:19:24.280 --> 00:19:27.496
It's like, you know, we, we organize a lot of things.

399
00:19:27.496 --> 00:19:29.520
We also know a lot of people organize a lot

400
00:19:29.520 --> 00:19:32.656
of things, and that's a very, very good point.

401
00:19:32.656 --> 00:19:37.128
And I hope, yeah, all of us is doing better than that.

402
00:19:37.128 --> 00:19:37.640
Yeah.

403
00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:39.456
So what do you think about AI?

404
00:19:39.456 --> 00:19:42.728
Because I know that, like, you know, maybe for you, like,

405
00:19:42.728 --> 00:19:45.240
a lot of technology helped you a lot in daily life.

406
00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:47.464
So what do you think about AI technologies?

407
00:19:47.464 --> 00:19:49.720
Do you think it will help you more or do you think

408
00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:53.044
you would take your job as a developer or things like that?

409
00:19:53.784 --> 00:19:54.456
Yes.

410
00:19:54.456 --> 00:19:59.304
So another to kind of answer that question a little,

411
00:19:59.304 --> 00:20:02.368
like, I would love to take a tiny detour and

412
00:20:02.368 --> 00:20:05.232
just say, there is one thing I totally didn't mention

413
00:20:05.232 --> 00:20:09.280
in my intro, and it wasn't for any.

414
00:20:09.280 --> 00:20:11.162
The various reasons, I just totally

415
00:20:11.162 --> 00:20:12.250
also forgot to mention it.

416
00:20:12.250 --> 00:20:15.802
So by, like, on my day to day, I am

417
00:20:15.802 --> 00:20:21.034
a student, I'm a Computer Science student, and I'm, by,

418
00:20:21.034 --> 00:20:24.770
by that, I'm surrounded by other Computer Science students that

419
00:20:24.770 --> 00:20:28.454
are, many of them are just learning.

420
00:20:29.994 --> 00:20:36.282
And it can get really tiresome when instead of

421
00:20:36.282 --> 00:20:39.754
actually trying to look into and try to solve

422
00:20:39.754 --> 00:20:42.104
the problem, which was what I fell in love

423
00:20:42.104 --> 00:20:46.112
with, with programming and tech, they just write a

424
00:20:46.112 --> 00:20:50.640
question to ChatGPT, or just add, pastes code

425
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:53.804
into ChatGPT and say, "Hey, why isn't this working?"

426
00:20:56.384 --> 00:20:59.592
Yeah, that's, and that, like, it's so sad to

427
00:20:59.592 --> 00:21:02.696
see that people, that this technology is really great.

428
00:21:02.696 --> 00:21:04.272
It's changing a lot of lives, but for

429
00:21:04.272 --> 00:21:06.752
most people, it's just, of course it's where

430
00:21:06.752 --> 00:21:09.786
it's going, but they just, they don't.

431
00:21:09.786 --> 00:21:11.394
I feel like they just.

432
00:21:11.394 --> 00:21:12.938
Most of what I see around me on

433
00:21:12.938 --> 00:21:15.298
my day to day is just, people don't

434
00:21:15.298 --> 00:21:19.146
really have that problem solving mentality so much

435
00:21:19.146 --> 00:21:21.282
anymore, especially if you're just starting out.

436
00:21:21.282 --> 00:21:22.530
That's the whole point of

437
00:21:22.530 --> 00:21:24.442
studying Computer Science, is this.

438
00:21:24.442 --> 00:21:29.218
You need to learn and train this problem solving skill.

439
00:21:29.218 --> 00:21:33.114
And if every problem just be, oh, just ask ChatGPT,

440
00:21:33.114 --> 00:21:35.682
If every solution just becomes, oh, just ask ChatGPT,

441
00:21:35.682 --> 00:21:38.754
then it just kind of falls apart.

442
00:21:39.534 --> 00:21:41.822
And I can see that very quickly because the

443
00:21:41.822 --> 00:21:44.102
second that ChatGPT can't  give you an answer

444
00:21:44.102 --> 00:21:47.314
that works, it falls all on the ground.

445
00:21:48.534 --> 00:21:50.806
I really just wanted to get out of that.

446
00:21:50.806 --> 00:21:53.990
But that said, for me, it's really changed.

447
00:21:53.990 --> 00:21:55.278
That's a very good point.

448
00:21:55.278 --> 00:21:57.154
Yeah, that's a very good point.

449
00:21:58.094 --> 00:21:59.914
A little funny story.

450
00:22:00.654 --> 00:22:03.326
This will reveal how much older

451
00:22:03.326 --> 00:22:05.474
I am as compared to you.

452
00:22:07.174 --> 00:22:10.804
Is that my daughter, she's in the University.

453
00:22:10.804 --> 00:22:24.316
And the moment, so the moment when ChatGPT just

454
00:22:24.316 --> 00:22:27.892
came out, they are receiving, you know, schools, you have

455
00:22:27.892 --> 00:22:30.732
reports and you need to write reports, and it seems

456
00:22:30.732 --> 00:22:34.344
that everyone just suddenly improved in writing.

457
00:22:35.584 --> 00:22:36.448
Yeah.

458
00:22:36.448 --> 00:22:40.552
And so you can, you can kind of realize that the

459
00:22:40.552 --> 00:22:45.048
teachers and all this were like, okay, this is weird that

460
00:22:45.048 --> 00:22:48.704
before that you couldn't do it, and now suddenly all my

461
00:22:48.704 --> 00:22:52.416
students are doing really well, and you can hear kids talking

462
00:22:52.416 --> 00:22:54.592
about it and say, like, you know what?

463
00:22:54.592 --> 00:22:57.312
Yeah, just ask ChatGPT to fill up.

464
00:22:57.312 --> 00:23:00.656
They can do perfect reports for us.

465
00:23:00.656 --> 00:23:02.988
Mm hmm. Yeah.

466
00:23:02.988 --> 00:23:06.044
And it's, it's really sad because this, this technology

467
00:23:06.044 --> 00:23:09.172
has fully changed many lives, my own included.

468
00:23:09.172 --> 00:23:13.012
Um, I love, especially for more advanced

469
00:23:13.012 --> 00:23:14.476
topics I don't know that much about.

470
00:23:14.476 --> 00:23:18.540
I love to be like in tech, all of it.

471
00:23:18.540 --> 00:23:22.684
Mostly, I love talking, talking with ChatGPT because it has,

472
00:23:22.684 --> 00:23:27.092
even though it might sometimes come up with dumb information that's

473
00:23:27.092 --> 00:23:29.628
not accurate, it has a lot of training data, so it

474
00:23:29.628 --> 00:23:31.344
has a lot of stuff it can pull from.

475
00:23:32.444 --> 00:23:35.892
Also, the feature I probably use the most is

476
00:23:35.892 --> 00:23:40.268
either image generation or even more so image description.

477
00:23:40.268 --> 00:23:42.372
So I can take a picture with my phone

478
00:23:42.372 --> 00:23:45.324
and I can get the AI to describe the

479
00:23:45.324 --> 00:23:47.252
image, and then I can ask it follow up

480
00:23:47.252 --> 00:23:51.140
questions to that description or to the image specifically.

481
00:23:51.140 --> 00:23:53.220
And I use that daily.

482
00:23:53.220 --> 00:23:55.412
Wow, I love that idea. Yeah.

483
00:23:55.412 --> 00:23:57.844
Speaking about that, I'm just going to bring

484
00:23:57.844 --> 00:24:00.228
back about the tools that you use.

485
00:24:00.228 --> 00:24:03.332
I'm sure there are people out there who are computer

486
00:24:03.332 --> 00:24:07.978
science students with similar disabilities like you, so maybe you

487
00:24:07.978 --> 00:24:10.690
can suggest to them, like, what kind of tools which

488
00:24:10.690 --> 00:24:13.106
you're using that is like, really useful.

489
00:24:13.106 --> 00:24:14.546
Well, yeah, of course.

490
00:24:14.546 --> 00:24:18.130
So, first of all, I can't believe I didn't

491
00:24:18.130 --> 00:24:20.530
mention this sooner, but first of all, there's, of

492
00:24:20.530 --> 00:24:22.762
course, my screen reader that I use every day

493
00:24:22.762 --> 00:24:26.554
to actually interact with my computer called NVDA.

494
00:24:26.554 --> 00:24:29.658
It stands for Non Visual Desktop Access, and they

495
00:24:29.658 --> 00:24:33.218
are also open source and they, NVDA, the screen

496
00:24:33.218 --> 00:24:36.014
reader is actually also written in Python.

497
00:24:36.014 --> 00:24:38.894
Oh yeah. Wow.

498
00:24:38.894 --> 00:24:39.674
Yes.

499
00:24:40.814 --> 00:24:42.278
I use that every day.

500
00:24:42.278 --> 00:24:45.374
And it's been like that piece of software alone has

501
00:24:45.374 --> 00:24:48.430
changed my life and has made me like all be

502
00:24:48.430 --> 00:24:50.254
able to do all this stuff that I do every

503
00:24:50.254 --> 00:24:56.374
day, from coding to playing games to delivering presentations up

504
00:24:56.374 --> 00:24:59.070
on a stage in front of one or two people.

505
00:24:59.070 --> 00:25:00.518
Okay, there's probably more, but I

506
00:25:00.518 --> 00:25:02.414
can't see how many there is.

507
00:25:02.414 --> 00:25:04.474
I don't think it's only one or two.

508
00:25:06.344 --> 00:25:08.864
I can't see how many people are

509
00:25:08.864 --> 00:25:10.976
there, so I do not be nervous.

510
00:25:10.976 --> 00:25:14.584
I just tell myself there's probably only five people and

511
00:25:14.584 --> 00:25:17.408
they'll come and then at the end they all clap

512
00:25:17.408 --> 00:25:25.536
and I'm like, whoa, that was more, oh yeah, that

513
00:25:25.536 --> 00:25:27.496
happened, that happened to me at Bilbao.

514
00:25:27.496 --> 00:25:28.328
That's a funny story.

515
00:25:28.328 --> 00:25:29.524
You can get that later.

516
00:25:30.734 --> 00:25:33.606
Well, yeah, then I use Visual Studio

517
00:25:33.606 --> 00:25:35.382
code to write all my code.

518
00:25:35.382 --> 00:25:37.382
I use the Terminal for a lot of stuff.

519
00:25:37.382 --> 00:25:41.750
I use WSL for all Linux stuff because it's

520
00:25:41.750 --> 00:25:43.878
still on Windows, so I get all the accessibility,

521
00:25:43.878 --> 00:25:46.782
but I get the Linux server basically.

522
00:25:46.782 --> 00:25:49.302
I don't know if there's any like blind specific tools.

523
00:25:49.302 --> 00:25:52.270
And it's just probably the more of what most people do.

524
00:25:52.270 --> 00:25:57.082
I use GitHub, I use Internet browser. Yeah.

525
00:25:57.082 --> 00:25:59.274
What is your favorite browser?

526
00:25:59.274 --> 00:26:00.894
Which browser is the best?

527
00:26:06.674 --> 00:26:07.854
Hot topic.

528
00:26:08.514 --> 00:26:09.494
Very hot.

529
00:26:10.714 --> 00:26:13.090
I actually, I have, I have, yeah,

530
00:26:13.090 --> 00:26:14.082
because it is a hot topic.

531
00:26:14.082 --> 00:26:15.578
It's almost as bad as pineapple on

532
00:26:15.578 --> 00:26:18.434
pizza, like the pineapple and pizza debate.

533
00:26:18.434 --> 00:26:24.498
So I use the Chromium-based Edge browser as my

534
00:26:24.498 --> 00:26:27.762
primary browser because you get all the, all the good

535
00:26:27.762 --> 00:26:30.616
stuff of on Chrome that Chrome has to offer.

536
00:26:30.616 --> 00:26:32.264
You get all that goodness.

537
00:26:32.264 --> 00:26:35.216
And all the websites think you're running Chrome,

538
00:26:35.216 --> 00:26:37.152
so they don't say, hey, you should download

539
00:26:37.152 --> 00:26:39.084
Chrome for the most optimal experience.

540
00:26:40.304 --> 00:26:42.680
So you get all the features and you get all

541
00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:46.328
the goodies, and you can even run Chrome extensions on

542
00:26:46.328 --> 00:26:51.048
the Chromium Edge browser, but you don't get the massive,

543
00:26:51.048 --> 00:26:55.884
massive memory and CPU overhead that Google Chrome has.

544
00:26:56.584 --> 00:26:59.672
So that's what I do and I love it.

545
00:26:59.672 --> 00:27:00.440
Cool.

546
00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:02.164
Yeah, open source for the win.

547
00:27:03.104 --> 00:27:03.884
Yay.

548
00:27:04.464 --> 00:27:06.800
Yeah, open source all the way.

549
00:27:06.800 --> 00:27:08.304
I don't think we have a browser

550
00:27:08.304 --> 00:27:10.024
these days that are not open source.

551
00:27:10.024 --> 00:27:11.680
Now that I think about it, all

552
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:13.844
three major browsers are open source.

553
00:27:14.584 --> 00:27:15.604
That's true.

554
00:27:18.304 --> 00:27:23.288
So other than coding and programming, tell us a little

555
00:27:23.288 --> 00:27:25.648
bit more about how you stay sane in life.

556
00:27:25.648 --> 00:27:28.870
Like do you stay sane by drinking

557
00:27:28.870 --> 00:27:30.710
a cup of coffee or tea?

558
00:27:30.710 --> 00:27:34.474
Or do you like to go for regular walks or DJ.

559
00:27:39.734 --> 00:27:41.094
I'm very boring.

560
00:27:41.094 --> 00:27:42.942
I go to school, work with

561
00:27:42.942 --> 00:27:45.782
coding, come home, work with coding.

562
00:27:45.782 --> 00:27:48.694
I go to bed, I don't sleep

563
00:27:48.694 --> 00:27:51.078
and dream about code anymore, luckily.

564
00:27:51.078 --> 00:27:54.414
But then I do the same, the same thing.

565
00:27:54.414 --> 00:27:57.566
And, yeah, when I try to stay sane, when I

566
00:27:57.566 --> 00:28:01.518
started, when I try to stay sane, I basically go

567
00:28:01.518 --> 00:28:05.634
on and talk to my online friends while I code.

568
00:28:07.854 --> 00:28:10.638
So, yeah, other than that, yeah, I travel.

569
00:28:10.638 --> 00:28:12.918
I like traveling when I can, but most of it

570
00:28:12.918 --> 00:28:15.542
is to conferences and that's fine because it doesn't feel

571
00:28:15.542 --> 00:28:19.446
like I'm working and it doesn't feel like I'm coding.

572
00:28:19.446 --> 00:28:20.454
Even when I'm,

573
00:28:20.454 --> 00:28:21.542
even when I'm speaking.

574
00:28:21.542 --> 00:28:22.990
It's just so much fun.

575
00:28:22.990 --> 00:28:26.286
And I get totally rejuvenated at being

576
00:28:26.286 --> 00:28:30.094
around people and a community physically. I.

577
00:28:30.794 --> 00:28:32.706
I had no idea how,

578
00:28:32.706 --> 00:28:35.802
how, like, great it was going to be

579
00:28:35.802 --> 00:28:39.634
for me until I was there physically and

580
00:28:39.634 --> 00:28:41.786
tried being in an actual conference.

581
00:28:41.786 --> 00:28:44.410
It was great and it gave me so much energy.

582
00:28:44.410 --> 00:28:47.794
So that's probably the primary bigger things I do.

583
00:28:47.794 --> 00:28:49.826
So on this, like, day to

584
00:28:49.826 --> 00:28:52.978
day, I usually just stop coding.

585
00:28:52.978 --> 00:28:55.362
I watch YouTube here and there and.

586
00:28:55.362 --> 00:28:58.300
But even that bores me relatively quickly.

587
00:28:58.300 --> 00:29:03.356
And I play a video game for an hour or two and then

588
00:29:03.356 --> 00:29:07.984
I get bored and think about how I can mod it and stuff.

589
00:29:10.324 --> 00:29:12.464
Maybe you should write your own game.

590
00:29:13.124 --> 00:29:15.964
Yeah, you should write your own games.

591
00:29:15.964 --> 00:29:17.144
Working on it.

592
00:29:17.804 --> 00:29:19.236
Already working on it.

593
00:29:19.236 --> 00:29:23.044
Don't worry, that's already in the works.

594
00:29:23.044 --> 00:29:25.624
I wish I was joking about that, but I'm not.

595
00:29:26.444 --> 00:29:28.692
Oh, wow. Yeah.

596
00:29:28.692 --> 00:29:29.502
But the bad

597
00:29:29.502 --> 00:29:30.756
is launching.

598
00:29:30.756 --> 00:29:31.156
No.

599
00:29:31.156 --> 00:29:32.780
Give me like two years.

600
00:29:32.780 --> 00:29:35.972
The bad thing about game, the game industry is

601
00:29:35.972 --> 00:29:38.948
the, like, big tools like Unity and Unreal Engine.

602
00:29:38.948 --> 00:29:41.516
Like, two big ones are not accessible.

603
00:29:41.516 --> 00:29:45.002
So I have to write my own game engine. Yeah.

604
00:29:45.002 --> 00:29:45.324
Oh, wow.

605
00:29:45.324 --> 00:29:46.250
So I have to

606
00:29:46.250 --> 00:29:49.971
like wrap C++, or Rust, or something like that. Or Python.

607
00:29:49.972 --> 00:29:51.562
Probably not Python because it doesn't

608
00:29:51.562 --> 00:29:53.922
have all the cool libraries yet. So.

609
00:29:53.922 --> 00:29:54.574
Yeah.

610
00:29:55.234 --> 00:29:56.226
Not forgetting anything.

611
00:29:56.226 --> 00:29:57.458
Can you create them?

612
00:29:57.458 --> 00:30:01.214
I could, but then I need to maintain even more wrappers.

613
00:30:02.354 --> 00:30:04.850
Then it become a long quest. Side quests.

614
00:30:04.850 --> 00:30:06.610
Yes. Listen, I.

615
00:30:06.610 --> 00:30:09.090
Even while doing it in C++, I still have

616
00:30:09.090 --> 00:30:11.978
to create my own game engine from scratch.

617
00:30:11.978 --> 00:30:14.034
So, yeah, that's what I have to deal

618
00:30:14.034 --> 00:30:16.334
with if I want to make a game.

619
00:30:17.174 --> 00:30:17.954
Yeah.

620
00:30:18.854 --> 00:30:21.294
So people out there. People out there.

621
00:30:21.294 --> 00:30:21.598
Just.

622
00:30:21.598 --> 00:30:23.118
Just people out there.

623
00:30:23.118 --> 00:30:26.294
If you want to join forces with Jessica

624
00:30:26.294 --> 00:30:29.314
to create game engine, just contact her.

625
00:30:31.094 --> 00:30:32.430
Yeah. The thing of the.

626
00:30:32.430 --> 00:30:35.046
See, the thing about it is even the open source

627
00:30:35.046 --> 00:30:38.086
ones, they are not really that great with accessibility.

628
00:30:38.086 --> 00:30:39.302
Even the games that they can

629
00:30:39.302 --> 00:30:41.342
create are typically not great

630
00:30:41.342 --> 00:30:43.006
with accessibility either.

631
00:30:43.006 --> 00:30:45.294
So to make an actual accessible game engine,

632
00:30:45.294 --> 00:30:50.224
they can also produce accessible games that needs

633
00:30:50.224 --> 00:30:52.640
to be like, pretty much done from scratch.

634
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:54.672
And that's why I primarily make it.

635
00:30:54.672 --> 00:30:57.184
I'm primarily making a game engine that

636
00:30:57.184 --> 00:31:00.120
focuses on audio only based games.

637
00:31:00.120 --> 00:31:02.864
So there is no visuals, it's just pure audio.

638
00:31:02.864 --> 00:31:04.720
What genre of game do you like?

639
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:07.244
Is it like horror or is it like adventure?

640
00:31:08.304 --> 00:31:12.192
So the two genres that I'm aiming for the game engine to

641
00:31:12.192 --> 00:31:16.528
support is most of it is 3D, open world of some kind.

642
00:31:16.528 --> 00:31:20.910
So it's either going to be RPG style, style games,

643
00:31:20.910 --> 00:31:23.966
or it's going to be first-person shooter type games.

644
00:31:23.966 --> 00:31:27.590
Wow, sounds really interesting.

645
00:31:27.590 --> 00:31:29.694
There are so many games out there that depend

646
00:31:29.694 --> 00:31:33.558
so much on, like, looking at stuff, but we,

647
00:31:33.558 --> 00:31:35.086
we are so much more than that.

648
00:31:35.086 --> 00:31:38.014
You know, we can actually use our voice.

649
00:31:38.014 --> 00:31:41.566
We can actually even, even smell.

650
00:31:41.566 --> 00:31:45.164
Why didn't anyone create games related to smell?

651
00:31:46.064 --> 00:31:47.864
That would be so cool.

652
00:31:47.864 --> 00:31:52.032
Yeah, so luckily, luckily these the last couple of

653
00:31:52.032 --> 00:31:54.104
years, a lot of game studios, like bigger Game

654
00:31:54.104 --> 00:31:57.128
studios, have started to implement good accessibility features.

655
00:31:57.128 --> 00:31:58.392
That's why I've been able to

656
00:31:58.392 --> 00:32:00.364
actually play video games again.

657
00:32:01.424 --> 00:32:03.736
So, yeah, I've finally been able to just relax

658
00:32:03.736 --> 00:32:05.784
with a video game, but I've been in the.

659
00:32:05.784 --> 00:32:10.014
I basically been in the whole modding or running, like,

660
00:32:10.014 --> 00:32:12.510
doing something techy with a video game that now it's

661
00:32:12.510 --> 00:32:15.534
just so ingrained in me that I can't just not

662
00:32:15.534 --> 00:32:18.006
do that and just play a game and have fun.

663
00:32:18.006 --> 00:32:20.862
I always, okay, what can I do? Can I mod this?

664
00:32:20.862 --> 00:32:22.142
Can I run a server for this?

665
00:32:22.142 --> 00:32:24.874
Can I write something custom for that server?

666
00:32:27.774 --> 00:32:30.398
Can you just like, shut off for like ten minutes while I

667
00:32:30.398 --> 00:32:33.606
just relax and be stupid in this game where I smash around

668
00:32:33.606 --> 00:32:37.602
in a car and race against other cars and stuff, but now

669
00:32:37.602 --> 00:32:40.254
I have to be able to mod it, apparently.

670
00:32:41.714 --> 00:32:42.834
Yeah.

671
00:32:42.834 --> 00:32:45.058
Jessica, the problem solver.

672
00:32:45.058 --> 00:32:47.258
Yeah, I'm creating a problem and

673
00:32:47.258 --> 00:32:48.734
then I'm trying to solve it.

674
00:32:50.354 --> 00:32:52.594
It's like the chef can't enjoy a good

675
00:32:52.594 --> 00:32:55.294
dinner because they will be criticizing the dish.

676
00:32:56.634 --> 00:32:58.842
Yeah, I had the same when I was

677
00:32:58.842 --> 00:33:02.254
taking a music study class in high school.

678
00:33:03.254 --> 00:33:05.982
And then like a month in, I started, like,

679
00:33:05.982 --> 00:33:10.934
just unintentionally analyzing the music I was listening to,

680
00:33:10.934 --> 00:33:12.726
and I was just like, nope, nope, nope.

681
00:33:12.726 --> 00:33:14.154
Stop it, stop it.

682
00:33:15.574 --> 00:33:17.154
So do you still play music?

683
00:33:18.534 --> 00:33:23.654
Yeah, I actually have a Midi piano keyboard right over

684
00:33:23.654 --> 00:33:26.462
to my right that's hooked up to my computer.

685
00:33:26.462 --> 00:33:29.114
So if I ever want to play something, I do, actually.

686
00:33:30.204 --> 00:33:34.660
So one last question is, what's your next big thing?

687
00:33:34.660 --> 00:33:35.724
Ideally in Python.

688
00:33:35.724 --> 00:33:38.284
So what's your next exciting

689
00:33:38.284 --> 00:33:39.904
contribution to the community?

690
00:33:40.644 --> 00:33:43.084
I am hoping.

691
00:33:43.084 --> 00:33:45.188
I'm really hoping that I get to go

692
00:33:45.188 --> 00:33:48.908
to my first PyCon conference, Python specific conference.

693
00:33:48.908 --> 00:33:52.284
This summer, I applied to be a speaker.

694
00:33:52.284 --> 00:33:55.212
I send out a few CFPs, hope they get

695
00:33:55.212 --> 00:33:58.220
accepted, because if they are, I will so be

696
00:33:58.220 --> 00:34:01.204
going to my first Python specific conference.

697
00:34:01.204 --> 00:34:03.326
So that's the first main thing.

698
00:34:03.326 --> 00:34:03.950
Yeah.

699
00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:06.238
Also, for conferences who are looking for Keynote

700
00:34:06.238 --> 00:34:08.598
Speaker, you know there is a candidate.

701
00:34:08.598 --> 00:34:11.833
You know there is a candidate here.

702
00:34:14.494 --> 00:34:16.333
Also, I have massive stage fright,

703
00:34:16.333 --> 00:34:18.454
so, like, being a Keynote Speaker.

704
00:34:18.454 --> 00:34:21.429
Being a regular speaker is hard enough.

705
00:34:21.429 --> 00:34:23.045
Being a Keynote Speaker.

706
00:34:23.045 --> 00:34:24.270
Oh, don't worry.

707
00:34:24.270 --> 00:34:26.686
There's only two person on it.

708
00:34:26.686 --> 00:34:28.782
There's only two people on the stage.

709
00:34:28.782 --> 00:34:29.820
Um, and

710
00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:31.844
Maybe I can upgrade it to, like.

711
00:34:31.844 --> 00:34:35.732
Maybe I can upgrade it to, like, eight people.

712
00:34:35.732 --> 00:34:36.744
Less than ten.

713
00:34:39.043 --> 00:34:39.380
Yeah.

714
00:34:39.380 --> 00:34:40.460
But here's the issue.

715
00:34:40.460 --> 00:34:42.364
Usually at Keynotes, they, like.

716
00:34:42.364 --> 00:34:44.692
They actually present you and, like, they say

717
00:34:44.692 --> 00:34:46.076
your name and then they clap first.

718
00:34:46.076 --> 00:34:47.572
So I could get a way too good

719
00:34:47.572 --> 00:34:49.704
idea of how many people are actually there.

720
00:34:51.964 --> 00:34:52.492
No.

721
00:34:52.492 --> 00:34:53.460
Like, yeah, if.

722
00:34:53.460 --> 00:34:56.052
If people want, I would love to come up

723
00:34:56.052 --> 00:34:57.516
out and talk about a lot of things.

724
00:34:57.516 --> 00:35:00.504
I have a lot of things to talk about, and I talk a lot.

725
00:35:02.074 --> 00:35:03.810
So if they want to reach out

726
00:35:03.810 --> 00:35:04.922
to you, how do they get to.

727
00:35:04.922 --> 00:35:05.658
Reach out to you?

728
00:35:05.658 --> 00:35:07.374
Like social media.

729
00:35:08.154 --> 00:35:08.562
Yeah.

730
00:35:08.562 --> 00:35:13.786
So there is my website, jessicategner.com, and you

731
00:35:13.786 --> 00:35:17.330
can always write me an email, jessica@jessicategner.com.

732
00:35:17.330 --> 00:35:19.914
or they can reach out to me on LinkedIn.

733
00:35:19.914 --> 00:35:22.490
All of the stuff is very easy

734
00:35:22.490 --> 00:35:25.258
and easy to find on my website. And.

735
00:35:25.258 --> 00:35:28.094
Yeah, LinkedIn, GitHub, email.

736
00:35:28.094 --> 00:35:29.206
Yes, that's.

737
00:35:29.206 --> 00:35:31.550
That's the primary ones.

738
00:35:31.550 --> 00:35:32.342
Perfect.

739
00:35:32.342 --> 00:35:33.518
Sounds great.

740
00:35:33.518 --> 00:35:38.702
So thank you so much, Jessica, for coming over here

741
00:35:38.702 --> 00:35:44.354
and telling us about your journey from zero to hero.

742
00:35:47.214 --> 00:35:48.274
Thank you.

743
00:35:49.814 --> 00:35:54.700
And you can find us on pypodcats.live.

744
00:35:54.700 --> 00:35:59.500
There's P Y P O D C A T, like meow@pypodcats

745
00:35:59.500 --> 00:36:02.204
not podcast, dot live

746
00:36:02.204 --> 00:36:03.540
L I V E.

747
00:36:03.540 --> 00:36:06.244
Or on PSF YouTube channel,

748
00:36:06.244 --> 00:36:09.228
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, et cetera.

749
00:36:09.228 --> 00:36:14.788
So catch up with you during the next episodes.

750
00:36:14.788 --> 00:36:16.308
So my name is Georgi.

751
00:36:16.308 --> 00:36:17.428
And I'm Cheuk

752
00:36:17.428 --> 00:36:19.544
And our guest, Jessica.

753
00:36:21.724 --> 00:36:22.396
Yay.

754
00:36:22.396 --> 00:36:23.020
See ya.

755
00:36:23.020 --> 00:36:25.068
Yeah, bye.

756
00:36:25.068 --> 00:36:25.676
See you. Bye.